Who makes a left turn on red?
Posted by: Hoboken411 at 04:49 pm on September 12, 2012
Useless sign near PATH station in Hoboken, NJ
Down at the intersection of Hudson Place and River Street by the PATH Station there’s a sign for eastbound traffic that reads: “No Turn on Red.”
What I don’t understand is why this is even necessary. Usually, a right turn on red is allowed in most cases (unless specified). I’ve never heard of a left turn on red anywhere. Are today’s drivers so idiotic that they would even attempt this if there was no specific signage instructing them not to?
Probably just another way to pad the sign manufacturers contract or something. What next, signs like “running over pedestrians is prohibited?”
31 Responses to ** Who makes a left turn on red? **
December 6th, 2012 |
An action is only illegal if a person has violated a published and enacted law. If the law is silent or missing on a specific act, the person is not violating an existing law, so there cannot be a violation.
Positive law either grants a privilege or takes away one. On certain streets, there might be a legal sign that say RIGHT TURN ONLY, which is covered by positive law. However, if no sign is present on 2 intersecting 1-way streets and the direction is left, then the driver is violating no law, since there is no positive law published.
In response to Craig-D who said:
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December 10th, 2012 |
An interesting take on the law Midnight Racer. I’ll tell you what: Why don’t you test out your legal theory and start making regular left turns on red in NJ (preferably with a police cruiser nearby) and tell that how it works out for you. Good luck with that.
In response to MidnightRacer who said:
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December 10th, 2012 |
Craig, my response was to your assertion that the NJ law is silent re: left turns on red. My contention is that if the law is silent, a person cannot violated a law that does not exist. That’s fairly clear. Unless I’m wrong, N.J.S.A. 39:4-115 speaks directly to left and right turns on red, by stating “only upon the “go” signal”. Since the wording is shall + only, it restricts turns on lights to green only, unless an exception exists; signs, traffic cop, etc.
Maybe I’m missing the part where you say it’s silent. It looks clear to me.
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December 11th, 2012 |
Craig, are you saying that the NJ Motor Vehicle Commission-approved driver’s education website is lying?
“You may make a left turn on a red light only from a one-way street into another one-way street, unless otherwise posted.”
http://www.newjerseystatedriver.com/topics/index.php?tid=66
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December 12th, 2012 |
@MidnightRacer – Read it again. The statute states the you can only turn on a “go” signal. A “go” signal is a green light. It then states the one specific exception of that rule is right turns (unless otherwise posted). There is no exception for left turns. Without a specific exception for left turns, the turn only on a “go” signal law still applies to left turns. So the law is not realy silent. It’s telling you can’t make any turns on red – except if it’s a right turn in an intersection without a sign saying no right turns.
But don’t take my word for it. Feel free to not accept my interpretation and try a left on red in front of a cop. Tell us what happens.
In response to MidnightRacer who said:
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December 12th, 2012 |
@homeworld – just because that site says it’s “NJ MVC approved” doesn’t mean it’s true – nor does it mean that the MVC actually reviewed the site’s contents. You’ll notice that that site has several footnotes citing statutes backing up its various statements on proper driving procedure. Perhaps you’ll also notice that there is curiously no footnote for that particular sentence you copied. That’s because they couldn’t cite to anything backing up that particular statement – there is no law allowing a left on red in NJ. The law in NJ is:
“The driver of a vehicle or the motorman
of a streetcar a. intending to turn to the right or left
at an intersection where traffic is controlled by
traffic control signals or by a traffic or police officer,
shall proceed to make either turn with proper care to
avoid accidents and, except as provided in b. below
only upon the “Go” signal unless otherwise directed
by a traffic or police officer, an official sign or
special signal; or b. intending to turn right at an
intersection where traffic is controlled by a traffic
control signal shall, unless an official sign of the
State, municipality, or county authority having
jurisdiction over the intersection prohibits the same”
- NJSA 39:4-115
In layman’s terms: no turns at taffic signals without a green light unless a traffic officer, sign, or special signal tells you otherwise. The lone exception (provided in item “b” above), is right turns. Those can be made on red. No exception is made for left turns of any kind without a “go” signal. Hence they are illegal.
In response to homeworld who said:
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December 12th, 2012 |
Craig, the reason I ever responded to this thread is due to the claim, from you, that the law is silent on left turns on red. Now your last post previous to this says the law actually really is NOT silent, as I actually said in my previous post. As I said, if the law is silent on a thing, a violation cannot occur. Here, it is not silent. Moving on… I did read it again, and it clearly speaks on left or right turns on red with the following excerpt:
NJSA 39:4-115) …”only upon the “go” signal unless otherwise directed by a traffic or police officer, an official sign or special signal”…
The law doesn’t specify left or right, which means the general and not specific, including left and right turns on red. If the township or county officials sees fit, they can place a sign that reads something like left turn on red after full stop. After all, the statute is title with left and right turns in the context of traffic light:
39:4-115. Making right or left turn
39:4-115. The driver of a vehicle or the motorman of a streetcar: a. intending to turn to the right or left at an intersection where traffic is controlled by traffic control signals or by a traffic or police officer, shall proceed to make either turn with proper care to avoid accidents and, except as provided in b. below, only upon the “go” signal unless otherwise directed by a traffic or police officer, an official sign or special signal; or b. intending to turn right at an intersection where traffic is controlled by a traffic control signal shall, unless an official sign of the State, municipality, or county authority having jurisdiction over the intersection prohibits the same, proceed to make the turn upon a “stop” or “caution” signal with proper care to avoid accidents after coming to a full stop, observing traffic in all directions, yielding to other vehicular traffic traveling in a direction in which the turn will be made, and stopping and remaining stopped for pedestrians crossing the roadway within a marked crosswalk, or at an unmarked crosswalk, into which the driver is turning. Both the approach for and the turn shall be made as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, unless such intersection is otherwise posted.
In response to Craig-D who said:
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December 12th, 2012 |
Maybe that was messy, I’m make it shorter:
Here’s the statute excerpt on making left and right turns:
39:4-115. The driver of a vehicle or the motorman of a streetcar: a. intending to turn to the right or left at an intersection where traffic is controlled by traffic control signals or by a traffic or police officer, shall proceed to make either turn with proper care to avoid accidents and, except as provided in b. below, only upon the “go” signal unless otherwise directed by a traffic or police officer, an official sign
I interpreted that to give authority for officials to place an [official sign] at a red light that allows left or right turns on red. When the specific is absent and the context is left and right turns, the general applies. Left turns on red in NJ are possible given an official sign that reads left turn permitted after full stop.
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December 13th, 2012 |
I have to say that I admire the simplicity of the statement “I’m a lawyer, so let me settle this.” As if lawyers have the market cornered on an ability to read and interpret statutes and others are precluded from doing so. I’ve worked with many lawyers in my time, and found most of them to be really quite…how do I put this…stupid.
In response to MidnightRacer who said:
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December 13th, 2012 |
How do you know if someone is a lawyer?
They’ll tell you.
In response to xxrjxx who said:
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December 13th, 2012 |
It doesn’t read as one exception, but actually two. You’re looking only at b. as an exception and missing the first. It would seem that in b. exception, it allows rights on red in general but gives authority to remove right turns on red permission given the local authority’s decision. So it would seem the statute allow for left and right turns on red if a sign permits it for left, or a sign does not permit it on right. That’s how I read it anyway.
Part a. (first line in statute) deals with left and right turns at traffic lights and includes the exception for left and right turns. The driver can turn left or right on the green light only, unless an official sign (or police officer) permits a left or right after full stop.
Part b. (the 2nd exception) deals with right turns only. It seems to say that a driver cannot turn right on red if an official sign or police officer directs no right turn is permitted.
To make it more simple to see, I’ll snip the clauses (indicated by symbol [...]) for a more direct view.
39:4-115. The driver [...] intending to turn to the right or left at an intersection where traffic is controlled by traffic control signals [...], shall proceed to make either turn [...] only upon the “go” signal unless otherwise directed by [...] an official sign
b. intending to turn right at an intersection where traffic is controlled by a traffic control signal shall, unless an official sign [...] prohibits the same, proceed to make the turn upon a “stop”
In response to Craig-D who said:
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