And not that I think you haven’t done your research, but just that I believe that most of the information out there is incomplete or misinformed. So I do have to disagree with you and “99% of the intelligent people” out there on the idea that saturated fat is in any way bad for you. It was a theory which gained momentum when its proponents were able to influence the government to adopting them into the USDA dietary recommendations. At that point the dogma became entrenched in the medical community.

The problem is that not only Gary Taubes but many, many doctors and scientists over the last 30 years have questioned the science behind this assumption, and asked for proof.

And like many other generally accepted “common sense” ideas (the earth is flat, etc.), when it is put up to critical examination it is suddenly found very lacking. But like any other profession doctors and dietitians are just human, and so they ignore those ideas that go against what they “know to be true” and dismiss them, and so, for awhile the established dogma maintains its position as the generally accepted “truth”.

To quote Michael Crichton: “The greatest scientists in history are great precisely because they broke with the consensus. There is no such thing as consensus science. If it’s consensus, it isn’t science. If it’s science, it isn’t consensus. Period.”

I started my path to a low-carb diet through the investigation of cholesterol therapies. More than anything else, the “saturated fat is evil” dogma is prevalent in the cardiovascular treatment community. The American Heart Association has bought into the prevailing theories that blocked arteries are caused by high cholesterol, that saturated fat in the diet causes high cholesterol, and therefore saturated fat is a direct contributor to heart disease. The problem is, they have no proof showing this causation, anywhere in the chain. None, zero, zip, nada. BUT, when you look at the evidence and ask how does dietary carbohydrate affect these factors the data becomes overwhelmingly in favor of carbohydrate restriction as a positive effector of cardiovascular health markers.

You don’t have to believe me, believe the people doing the research or treating patients.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_resea...h_related_to_low-carbohydrate_diets

http://www.thincs.org

Have a great weekend! Eat some buttered bacon. Its good for you.

boston1 wrote:

LOL – So, because this Gary person theorizes in his book that saturated fats are not bad, Everyone should believe Gary’s theory and take it to heart(no pun intended)? Again, you are starting to sound pretty scary. and FYI, not everyone stuffs themselves after they exercise. Everyone you know is completely famished after they workout and gorges on food? wrong. Certainly not people trying to lose weight. ME and my friends do triathlons in the summer and do not gorge afterwards. It’s common knowledge that one will lose weight FASTER combining exercise with diet then just dieting alone. Sorry, except you.

Frightening. Honestly, I’m bored with this already. I’ll believe all the medically trained doctors, nutrionists, exercise physiologists and other scientist’s theory that saturated fat can cause heart disease and exercise aids weight loss and you can believe Gary Taubes. Done. Have a terrific weekend.

You’re unwittingly a providing classic example of why the prevailing dogma, ahem, prevails so strongly. People just know these things, don’t they? It’s common knowledge. No need to examine them, we all just know it, right? right? LOL at anyone who disagrees…

Sorry you’re bored, I’ve been enjoying this back and forth.

a last comment, today anyway, on exercise. Of course, if you can manage to exercise and not eat more, you’ll have an advantage. The same advantage you would have had if you had eaten even less (oh, say 1600k in my prior example) and skipped the exercise. Either way you are forcing your self to live on X fewer calorie than you are burning. Am I missing something here (other than “hmmph, everyone knows this…”)?

boston1 wrote:

mrfreddy wrote:

boston1 wrote:

LOL LOL LOL – OK Doctor! WHATEVER you say! I’m sure no one with heart disease or family history of is stupid enough to listen to the above and eat tons of saturated fats so I’m not worried, unsaturated fats is a different story. FYI, I don’t recall mentioning A WORD about carbs so not sure who your rambling is meant for, but not for me.

Have a GREAT DAY Genius! Gonna go shovel snow for that horrible thing called EXERCISE!

nobody should listen to me, you’re damn right about that. But you should take a look at Gary Taubes book. He takes a long hard look at the source of and the actual science behind the dietary and exercise dogma you are presenting. His entire point is that this is all based on a enormously bad science, politics, strong personalities, etc. etc. I know it’s hard to believe that fat isn’t the demon, that it might actually be good for you. Even harder to believe that so many nutritional authorities have gotten it wrong, for all these years. Gary lays out his case in a meticulous and irrefutable manner. I haven’t seen one critique of his book that had a bit of substance to it.

Unless you consider making fun of his waistline a valid criticism, I suppose.

Slice slice! (thru a buttery smooth ribeye fresh off the grill!)

LOL LOL – For once we agree, NO ONE should listen to you. I’m starting to think you are related to Gary Taubes. When did I “criticize his book?” Because I disagreed that an overweight person can lose weight faster if they exercised? Sue me. I’m fairly certain 99% of the intelligent population agrees with that theory. FYI, I have read his book, My comments clearly state I agree with a lot of it, and for the THIRD and FINAL TIME, I never said ALL FATS WERE BAD. I read up on MANY DIFFERENT points of view on nutritional theories and think there are valid points on many sides, not just one. Your fierce defense of one person’s theory is just a little scary.

For the FIRST and FINAL time, I never said you said all fats were bad. You have stated repeatedly that saturated fats are dangerous. If you had read and understood Gary’s book, you wouldn’t be goin around making such dogmatic proclamations. None of the science behind that notion holds up to serious scrutiny.

so, if 99% of intelligent people agree on a point, it must be true? really? interesting…

Regarding exercise, here’s a simple thought experiment. Imagine you need to eat under 2000k to lose weight from whatever you weigh now. 2000k is the smallest amount you can eat without being hungry. In fact, you are just a bit hungry at that level. Now go out and run 45 minutes per day, and try to keep your calories at 2000. You can’t because you’ll be famished. You easily eat 2500ish. Which will pretty much negate the weight loss benefit of the running. You’ll still lose weight, due to the caloric deficit you are creating (unless you really overeat, which isn’t hard to do).

The point is, as far as weight loss is concerned, you could have done just as well without the exercise by just eating the 2000k per day.

Exercise in and of itself offers no magic metabolic advantage. You burn X calories, but at the same time, you are driven to eat X calories more than you would have. Unless you are really good at dealing with hunger, I suppose.

mrfreddy wrote:

boston1 wrote:

LOL LOL LOL – OK Doctor! WHATEVER you say! I’m sure no one with heart disease or family history of is stupid enough to listen to the above and eat tons of saturated fats so I’m not worried, unsaturated fats is a different story. FYI, I don’t recall mentioning A WORD about carbs so not sure who your rambling is meant for, but not for me.

Have a GREAT DAY Genius! Gonna go shovel snow for that horrible thing called EXERCISE!

nobody should listen to me, you’re damn right about that. But you should take a look at Gary Taubes book. He takes a long hard look at the source of and the actual science behind the dietary and exercise dogma you are presenting. His entire point is that this is all based on a enormously bad science, politics, strong personalities, etc. etc. I know it’s hard to believe that fat isn’t the demon, that it might actually be good for you. Even harder to believe that so many nutritional authorities have gotten it wrong, for all these years. Gary lays out his case in a meticulous and irrefutable manner. I haven’t seen one critique of his book that had a bit of substance to it.

Unless you consider making fun of his waistline a valid criticism, I suppose.

Slice slice! (thru a buttery smooth ribeye fresh off the grill!)

LOL LOL – For once we agree, NO ONE should listen to you. I’m starting to think you are related to Gary Taubes. When did I “criticize his book?” Because I disagreed that an overweight person can lose weight faster if they exercised? Sue me. I’m fairly certain 99% of the intelligent population agrees with that theory. FYI, I have read his book, My comments clearly state I agree with a lot of it, and for the THIRD and FINAL TIME, I never said ALL FATS WERE BAD. I read up on MANY DIFFERENT points of view on nutritional theories and think there are valid points on many sides, not just one. Your fierce defense of one person’s theory is just a little scary.

MrFreddy and I have presented data, scientific studies, and real information.

You have provided links to sites that are either PETA agenda driven and lacking in facts, or that ultimately prove inconclusive and opinion driven, and in some cases prove my points more than yours.

Enjoy your lunch. Do some reading while you eat:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_resea...h_related_to_low-carbohydrate_diets

Why no autopsy on Dr. Fatkins????? aka Mr. Heart Disease
Gary’s out of shape/ fp fat physique is not a personal attack!!!

It goes to the “heart” of his credibility as Mr. Diet/Exercise Expert!!!!

Honcho say Chop!Chop!….. get on the Mediterranean diet Gary you fat load and join a gym!!!!

Just finished my 1 hour power yoga session now I’m headed out for a broccoli/wheat grass smoothie!!!!
Maybe I get a gyro souvlaki tonight from Greek to Me with a small greek salad!!!!!

boston1 wrote:

LOL LOL LOL – OK Doctor! WHATEVER you say! I’m sure no one with heart disease or family history of is stupid enough to listen to the above and eat tons of saturated fats so I’m not worried, unsaturated fats is a different story. FYI, I don’t recall mentioning A WORD about carbs so not sure who your rambling is meant for, but not for me.

Have a GREAT DAY Genius! Gonna go shovel snow for that horrible thing called EXERCISE!

nobody should listen to me, you’re damn right about that. But you should take a look at Gary Taubes book. He takes a long hard look at the source of and the actual science behind the dietary and exercise dogma you are presenting. His entire point is that this is all based on a enormously bad science, politics, strong personalities, etc. etc. I know it’s hard to believe that fat isn’t the demon, that it might actually be good for you. Even harder to believe that so many nutritional authorities have gotten it wrong, for all these years. Gary lays out his case in a meticulous and irrefutable manner. I haven’t seen one critique of his book that had a bit of substance to it.

Unless you consider making fun of his waistline a valid criticism, I suppose.

Slice slice! (thru a buttery smooth ribeye fresh off the grill!)

Why did you leave out this quote from the same exact page in the WebMD link you referenced:

“The Atkins diet is a viable option that requires more testing,” Gary D. Foster, PhD, clinical director of the weight and eating disorders program at the University of Pennsylvania, tells WebMD. “The Atkins diet works at producing weight loss. If you are looking for weight loss, yes, it works. If you are looking for improvement in triglycerides and HDL cholesterol, yes, it works.”

Read that last sentence again. Now, if fat in your diet equaled fat in your blood (triglycerides), why would a LCHF diet “improve” it? Why would the two most important markers (TG and HDL) of cardiovascular health improve on a high fat diet? That is the question that has had most of the government and medical community scratching their heads for the last 30 years. So they come up with alternate theories like thrifty genes and the Mediterranean Diet to try and explain away the inconsistencies when the data meet their pet hypothesis. And the answer has been right in front of thier face. Excessive sugar, flour, and starch in the diet, largely put there to replace the “demon” fat, are causing unprecedented obesity, type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular disease, and cancer in western society.

The remaining doctors you quote don’t give any evidence (I said evidence, not opinions). And Gail Frank may be a PhD but she is certainly not the expert on nutritional science she purports to be. Early man ate primarily animal protein and fat, and supplemented that with some berries and some leafy greens. NO grains of any kind. So she not only quotes bad nutritional science, but also shows ignorance of the anthropology of paleolithic man.

Instead, for some accurate information why not go to the wikipedia page on the medical research supporting low-carbohydrate nutrition. 80 years of published research, 16 meta-analysis summaries and links to 25 legitimate studies with actual, data derived evidence.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_resea...h_related_to_low-carbohydrate_diets

‘Nuff said.

All I’ve been asking for is 2 things:
1) Stop the personal insults and attacks on both the living and the dead. They add nothing to the conversation and are insulting to the common courtesy of all the readers here.
2) Show me the science, not opinion. As the WebMD quotation you so thoughtfully provided shows, even PhD’s can be misinformed.

So, to quote bodisatvha Clara – Where’s the beef?

mrfreddy wrote:

boston1 wrote:

Anyone who has a family history of heart disease, at a minimum, should try to avoid saturated fats.

why? the science tells us that a diet with plenty of sat. fats, but very low in carbs will:

increase HDL (GOOD!)
drastically lower triglycerides (GOOD!)
convert most of your LDL to the large fluffy kind (VERY GOOD!)

None of this is even disputable, it’s been shown again and again.

LOL LOL LOL – OK Doctor! WHATEVER you say! I’m sure no one with heart disease or family history of is stupid enough to listen to the above and eat tons of saturated fats so I’m not worried, unsaturated fats is a different story. FYI, I don’t recall mentioning A WORD about carbs so not sure who your rambling is meant for, but not for me. Have a GREAT DAY Genius! Gonna go shovel snow for that horrible thing called EXERCISE!